Almost 12 years ago, Microsoft showed us the Surface for the first time. Back then, the company’s big bet was that the laptop market was ready for a shake-up, that it could radically change both the hardware and software of a Windows PC and make everything better. Windows 8 didn’t go so well, and neither did the early attempts at building Windows on top of Arm processors. The Surface, though, has turned into a pretty great device.

Now, Microsoft is making a very different wager, this time on AI being the future of computing in practically every way you can think of. And once again, it’s making that bet with the Surface.

On this episode of The Vergecast, Microsoft’s Windows and devices head Pavan Davuluri joins the show to discuss the 12-year Surface story and why the company continued to press to make Windows, Arm, and the laptop / tablet hybrid idea work. We also talk about how you’re supposed to use AI, whether chatbots are the future of everything, and which other kinds of devices could be cool in an AI world. (Looking at you, Surface Duo.)

Finally, we take a question on the Vergecast Hotline (866-VERGE11 or email vergecast@theverge.com!) about why Google’s AI search overhaul feels like such a big deal when Google’s actually a bit late to the game.

If you want to know more on everything we discuss in this episode, here are some links to get you started, first on Microsoft:

And on the smart home:

And on the AI future of Google Search: